1. The problem with Russia is not a territorial dispute. It is the ambition of a madman dreaming with an imperial Russia. If you check Russia media and even Putin, they don't think Ukrania has a right to exists. They think it is an invention that has to be assimilated. There is no hypothesis of resolution there.
2. Let's add to this a simple fact. We know it will not work. We know because it happened in 2014. Russia took Crimea, then didn't stop and instigated separatists movements in east Ukrania. Did Russia stop? No. I don't have any faith in something that is actually already failing,
3. Is it the time to negotiate peace with nazism? Ethnic Cleansing, killing of civilians, rape, kidnapping of children, a facist regime. Cheks out.
4. But Ukrania will loose... It was gonna loose in 2 days, then in a month, then in 2 months. Fact is Russia controll less territory than in march.
I have seen some ex commanders talking about the necessity of negotiations in the media, with fatalistic proyections. That contrast with current armies analysis (UK and US) adress about Russia capabilities.
5. This is the moment. Because Putin launched an invasion thinking he has 2 greatest army in the world. But Russia is sending '50-60 tanks to the war. Logistic has been a mess and there is a lack of good command.
6. Any peace with Russia won't last. This is a simple true. It will only help to facilitate the russian ocupation and preparations for a new future invation. It will bring more pain for Ukraine. It will be better for the rest of us, but not for ukranians.
To me these are the options:
Ukraine is forced to do something doesn't want, ignore the genocides, the destruction and concede more territory. Facism won (lets say it as it is) The rest of the world forget about it for some years. We all take care of our own stuff. And some years later all this repeat, again. As it happened before.
The world take the punch once, and support those who fight against true depicable evil, despite the pain. And maybe, maybe, no guarantees, something change.
If this sound as i am angry, it is true. Not with you. I respect your opinion Eirc, and i think you think it is for the best. But the world cannot let Russia won. Enough is enough, facism can't won. Genocide cannot be rewarded.
A very cogent argument except for a couple of points.
Erik presumes to sacrifice Ukrainian land to alleviate African hunger.
First world arrogance.
We could do much to alleviate that world hunger by not converting our foodstocks into ethanol (talk about immorality!).
Putin took parts of Georgia, easten Ukraine, and the Crimea (as well as subjugated Chechnya).
Erik assumes that if we reward Putin for his 5th aggression, this time will be different. That does smack of Munich.
The Ukrainians may be (probably are) unrealistic about their war aims, but they are adults. Their choice, their consequences. (WSJ poll suggests that more than 80% of Ukrainians want to keep fighting.)
Yes, we are spending a fortune to support the Ukraine, but we are weakening Russia. (Being snide, but perhaps we could ask the Taliban to transfer some of our $80B in weapons to the Ukraine - puts our Ukrainian support in perspective.)
I understand Erik's points, but I remain unconvinced.
Other commenters made much more thorough points, but my gut reaction was a bit different.
So if Mexico should decide to take back Texas, to which they have an arguable claim, we should just negotiate to take a piece of our own country back?
Since WWII the world has, for the most part, had an order to it . It's by no means perfect, but it was a dam sight better than having periodic world wars every few decades.
Now some pathological narcissist unilaterally decides he wants to revive the 'glory' days of a bread-less toilet paper-less Soviet Union, and we should negotiate with him?
That doesn't even account for the atrocities he's committing. Rapes. Murders. Killing children and families.
When the bully beats weaker kids in the play ground should we negotiate with him to only beat 2 and leave the rest alone?
No. You don't negotiate with monsters.
This mad man and all future mad men like him must be told no. No more. In no uncertain certain terms. Countries don't just invade other countries or unilaterally redraw borders on a whim.
Or millions more will die in future world wars.
And now we even have the nuclear capability to end the world as we know it.
Hunger and climate change won't matter if we've destroyed the world.
No. Some points.
1. The problem with Russia is not a territorial dispute. It is the ambition of a madman dreaming with an imperial Russia. If you check Russia media and even Putin, they don't think Ukrania has a right to exists. They think it is an invention that has to be assimilated. There is no hypothesis of resolution there.
2. Let's add to this a simple fact. We know it will not work. We know because it happened in 2014. Russia took Crimea, then didn't stop and instigated separatists movements in east Ukrania. Did Russia stop? No. I don't have any faith in something that is actually already failing,
3. Is it the time to negotiate peace with nazism? Ethnic Cleansing, killing of civilians, rape, kidnapping of children, a facist regime. Cheks out.
4. But Ukrania will loose... It was gonna loose in 2 days, then in a month, then in 2 months. Fact is Russia controll less territory than in march.
I have seen some ex commanders talking about the necessity of negotiations in the media, with fatalistic proyections. That contrast with current armies analysis (UK and US) adress about Russia capabilities.
5. This is the moment. Because Putin launched an invasion thinking he has 2 greatest army in the world. But Russia is sending '50-60 tanks to the war. Logistic has been a mess and there is a lack of good command.
6. Any peace with Russia won't last. This is a simple true. It will only help to facilitate the russian ocupation and preparations for a new future invation. It will bring more pain for Ukraine. It will be better for the rest of us, but not for ukranians.
To me these are the options:
Ukraine is forced to do something doesn't want, ignore the genocides, the destruction and concede more territory. Facism won (lets say it as it is) The rest of the world forget about it for some years. We all take care of our own stuff. And some years later all this repeat, again. As it happened before.
The world take the punch once, and support those who fight against true depicable evil, despite the pain. And maybe, maybe, no guarantees, something change.
If this sound as i am angry, it is true. Not with you. I respect your opinion Eirc, and i think you think it is for the best. But the world cannot let Russia won. Enough is enough, facism can't won. Genocide cannot be rewarded.
A very cogent argument except for a couple of points.
Erik presumes to sacrifice Ukrainian land to alleviate African hunger.
First world arrogance.
We could do much to alleviate that world hunger by not converting our foodstocks into ethanol (talk about immorality!).
Putin took parts of Georgia, easten Ukraine, and the Crimea (as well as subjugated Chechnya).
Erik assumes that if we reward Putin for his 5th aggression, this time will be different. That does smack of Munich.
The Ukrainians may be (probably are) unrealistic about their war aims, but they are adults. Their choice, their consequences. (WSJ poll suggests that more than 80% of Ukrainians want to keep fighting.)
Yes, we are spending a fortune to support the Ukraine, but we are weakening Russia. (Being snide, but perhaps we could ask the Taliban to transfer some of our $80B in weapons to the Ukraine - puts our Ukrainian support in perspective.)
I understand Erik's points, but I remain unconvinced.
Other commenters made much more thorough points, but my gut reaction was a bit different.
So if Mexico should decide to take back Texas, to which they have an arguable claim, we should just negotiate to take a piece of our own country back?
Since WWII the world has, for the most part, had an order to it . It's by no means perfect, but it was a dam sight better than having periodic world wars every few decades.
Now some pathological narcissist unilaterally decides he wants to revive the 'glory' days of a bread-less toilet paper-less Soviet Union, and we should negotiate with him?
That doesn't even account for the atrocities he's committing. Rapes. Murders. Killing children and families.
When the bully beats weaker kids in the play ground should we negotiate with him to only beat 2 and leave the rest alone?
No. You don't negotiate with monsters.
This mad man and all future mad men like him must be told no. No more. In no uncertain certain terms. Countries don't just invade other countries or unilaterally redraw borders on a whim.
Or millions more will die in future world wars.
And now we even have the nuclear capability to end the world as we know it.
Hunger and climate change won't matter if we've destroyed the world.