Absolutely agree that it was past time to get out.
But in such an incompetent and dishonorable way?
Incompetent: The US military has confirmed that they have adopted the Soviet military model: "Better a reliable incompetent than a competent unreliable."
Gen. Milley would have done better to read less about "white rage" and more about managing a successful retreat.
Why does it matter? Incompetence encourages our enemies. Arguably the Bay of Pigs encouraged the Cuban Missile Crisis. Arguably the taking of our Tehran embassy encouraged the Russians to invade Afghanistan.
Feckless leaders encourage opportunists.
Dishonorable: At a time when we are allowing perhaps 150,000 illegals per month through our southern border, could we not have made room for 150,000 Afghans who were our allies?
Compare our callousness to the efforts of the French (with miniscule resources).
The French teaching us about military honor!!!
No, I remain unconvinced; we could have handled our retreat far better.
No doubt we could have. My position remains: Who's to say we would have? Would it have been handled better in a year? Would the next president have handled it better? More likely we were always going to make this blunder. Maybe we can at least learn from it.
There is no honor in warfare, there is only the living and the dead. Talking about the "proper and honorable" defeat is a luxury reserved for those who are not currently living under the barrel of the gun. But sure- let several hundred people with names and faces and lives become corpses that have nothing at all so you can nod sagely in your comfortable chair at home and say "damned good show, those lads, very brave and honorable". I only hope that when the scythe comes for your in one of slaughter's uncountable hands you do not make yourself a hypocrite but spread your arms wide to embrace it.
Aye, it feels as if the conversation around the occupation of Afghanistan is at this moment overshadowed by the botched withdrawal, and rightly so in my opinion. The latter is still happening as we speak. Thousands of American citizens and allies trapped, billions in high tech weaponry being captured, etc. What really hammers home the sensational nature of the story is that Biden and his staff were pulling a Baghdad Bob, telling us things that were so far removed from reality, only to be disproven in spectacular fashion mere days later.
But I understand the urgency to talk about the occupation itself, which we invested 20 years in, before it slips from the public consciousness in... oh about a week. It'll soon be time to get back to only war that matters – Scarlett Johansson vs. Disney
Yeah the whole thing was a total mess from start to disastrous finish. I'm glad we're out but I wish it had been done with more care and competence. And yes, this will all be last week's story soon enough.
You should write “the government heads” instead of “Biden,” because I don’t think old Mr B is firing on enough cylinders to even be able to remember where Afghanistan is on the map.
I think you put it all perfectly. Afghanistan will never be a western version of democracy. That is not their cultural or societal heritage. It was time to pull out and perhaps we should have done so after killing Bin Laden. The Taliban were always going to come back and take back the country....and the Afghans are the ones who will have to decide what it is they want for their future.
Although I do think this retreat was incredibly poorly planned. I think leadership (including all these whiners in Congress) has the information from the ground in Afghanistan indicating that the Afghan government/country was going to collapse almost immediately and that the Taliban was ready & waiting to make their move to take over Afghanistan. I believe that the Aug 31 deadline was ridiculous (and what is the deal with stating a date anyway??).....we should have set a deadline for sometime in the winter-giving ourselves, our NATO allies, and any Afghans throughout the country an actual reasonable amount of time to get to Kabul to get out. Also, we were extremely derelict in the processing of visas for our Afghan allies who helped us for the past 20 years. Why have these Afghans NOT been approved after 4 or more years to gain entry into our country??? Isn’t that what we promised them?? That is what bothers me the most about this debacle.
I have no issue with leaving Afghanistan.....it is more than time to do so.....I just have issues with how it has been handled. I don’t think another year would be the solution-but a few more months with actual effort to get the Afghanis out who want to get out.
Thanks, I think most people can agree that the withdrawal was carried out with spectacular incompetence. I'm still glad we're getting out, however messily.
Well said. It is worth remembering that the Taliban were largely funded by ourselves - USA & UK in our fight against communism and the arms they are using come from the big western powers. they aren’t making those at home. How hard is it for us to step back and let a little sense prevail?!
We didn’t leave our weapons behind. Those captured were the arms of the ANA. Frankly, there’s nothing to be done about it now or before.
2nd. No intention of going to war with Iran? That is, unfortunately, very far from the truth. The Bushies certainly would have done it if Iraq had gone better. More recently, one does not hire Pompeo nor Bolton if one doesn’t entertain notions of invading Iran.
Actually, one more thing. The idea the withdrawal was hasty or poorly planned is way overblown. Trump negotiated a May 1 pullout. Biden postponed until Sept. Everyone on the planet knew it was coming at the end of the month at the latest. The taliban agreed not to attack US troops as long as we left. And they didn’t but they did start to retake provinces at the start of the month. That caused the withdrawal to be hastened. That isn’t the fault of any western leaders. It just is. Now, if you want to say we didn’t get all the folks out we needed to - I agree 100%. But that was going to be an issue if we on Sept 1 or August 15.
I refuse to accept that as a legitimate criticism from white nationalists who bleat about 150k “illegals” coming across the border every month.
For some reason I doubt a WN is going to be enthusiastic about granting refugee status to people they see as both non-white and completely adversarial to white nations.
Absolutely agree that it was past time to get out.
But in such an incompetent and dishonorable way?
Incompetent: The US military has confirmed that they have adopted the Soviet military model: "Better a reliable incompetent than a competent unreliable."
Gen. Milley would have done better to read less about "white rage" and more about managing a successful retreat.
Why does it matter? Incompetence encourages our enemies. Arguably the Bay of Pigs encouraged the Cuban Missile Crisis. Arguably the taking of our Tehran embassy encouraged the Russians to invade Afghanistan.
Feckless leaders encourage opportunists.
Dishonorable: At a time when we are allowing perhaps 150,000 illegals per month through our southern border, could we not have made room for 150,000 Afghans who were our allies?
Compare our callousness to the efforts of the French (with miniscule resources).
The French teaching us about military honor!!!
No, I remain unconvinced; we could have handled our retreat far better.
No doubt we could have. My position remains: Who's to say we would have? Would it have been handled better in a year? Would the next president have handled it better? More likely we were always going to make this blunder. Maybe we can at least learn from it.
Yes.
Element of fantasy in my post.
I think of Gen. Marshall, a cold and unpleasant man, but a leader who made the American army world class after the debacle at Kasserine Pass.
Then I look at our political generals (Petraeus, McChrystal, Milley, etc), who do not win and do not resign.
Our current generals have much in common with French generals circa Dien Bien Phu (de Castries and Navarre).
David Hackworth described them as perfumed princes (why is a major general assigned a chef?).
We have paid the price of for a harsh and expensive lesson.
Time for us to learn that lesson and change the culture of our military.
We have forgotten how to win.
But realistically, this post too is fantasy. I expect little change.
"Dishonorable"
There is no honor in warfare, there is only the living and the dead. Talking about the "proper and honorable" defeat is a luxury reserved for those who are not currently living under the barrel of the gun. But sure- let several hundred people with names and faces and lives become corpses that have nothing at all so you can nod sagely in your comfortable chair at home and say "damned good show, those lads, very brave and honorable". I only hope that when the scythe comes for your in one of slaughter's uncountable hands you do not make yourself a hypocrite but spread your arms wide to embrace it.
Aye, it feels as if the conversation around the occupation of Afghanistan is at this moment overshadowed by the botched withdrawal, and rightly so in my opinion. The latter is still happening as we speak. Thousands of American citizens and allies trapped, billions in high tech weaponry being captured, etc. What really hammers home the sensational nature of the story is that Biden and his staff were pulling a Baghdad Bob, telling us things that were so far removed from reality, only to be disproven in spectacular fashion mere days later.
But I understand the urgency to talk about the occupation itself, which we invested 20 years in, before it slips from the public consciousness in... oh about a week. It'll soon be time to get back to only war that matters – Scarlett Johansson vs. Disney
Yeah the whole thing was a total mess from start to disastrous finish. I'm glad we're out but I wish it had been done with more care and competence. And yes, this will all be last week's story soon enough.
You should write “the government heads” instead of “Biden,” because I don’t think old Mr B is firing on enough cylinders to even be able to remember where Afghanistan is on the map.
Honestly, I wonder this with all presidents. We give them too much credit and too much blame, I'd wager.
I think you put it all perfectly. Afghanistan will never be a western version of democracy. That is not their cultural or societal heritage. It was time to pull out and perhaps we should have done so after killing Bin Laden. The Taliban were always going to come back and take back the country....and the Afghans are the ones who will have to decide what it is they want for their future.
Although I do think this retreat was incredibly poorly planned. I think leadership (including all these whiners in Congress) has the information from the ground in Afghanistan indicating that the Afghan government/country was going to collapse almost immediately and that the Taliban was ready & waiting to make their move to take over Afghanistan. I believe that the Aug 31 deadline was ridiculous (and what is the deal with stating a date anyway??).....we should have set a deadline for sometime in the winter-giving ourselves, our NATO allies, and any Afghans throughout the country an actual reasonable amount of time to get to Kabul to get out. Also, we were extremely derelict in the processing of visas for our Afghan allies who helped us for the past 20 years. Why have these Afghans NOT been approved after 4 or more years to gain entry into our country??? Isn’t that what we promised them?? That is what bothers me the most about this debacle.
I have no issue with leaving Afghanistan.....it is more than time to do so.....I just have issues with how it has been handled. I don’t think another year would be the solution-but a few more months with actual effort to get the Afghanis out who want to get out.
Thanks, I think most people can agree that the withdrawal was carried out with spectacular incompetence. I'm still glad we're getting out, however messily.
Well said. It is worth remembering that the Taliban were largely funded by ourselves - USA & UK in our fight against communism and the arms they are using come from the big western powers. they aren’t making those at home. How hard is it for us to step back and let a little sense prevail?!
Very very true.
Well said
Thanks!
Fine column. 2 pts of order.
We didn’t leave our weapons behind. Those captured were the arms of the ANA. Frankly, there’s nothing to be done about it now or before.
2nd. No intention of going to war with Iran? That is, unfortunately, very far from the truth. The Bushies certainly would have done it if Iraq had gone better. More recently, one does not hire Pompeo nor Bolton if one doesn’t entertain notions of invading Iran.
Actually, one more thing. The idea the withdrawal was hasty or poorly planned is way overblown. Trump negotiated a May 1 pullout. Biden postponed until Sept. Everyone on the planet knew it was coming at the end of the month at the latest. The taliban agreed not to attack US troops as long as we left. And they didn’t but they did start to retake provinces at the start of the month. That caused the withdrawal to be hastened. That isn’t the fault of any western leaders. It just is. Now, if you want to say we didn’t get all the folks out we needed to - I agree 100%. But that was going to be an issue if we on Sept 1 or August 15.
I refuse to accept that as a legitimate criticism from white nationalists who bleat about 150k “illegals” coming across the border every month.
For some reason I doubt a WN is going to be enthusiastic about granting refugee status to people they see as both non-white and completely adversarial to white nations.