I think the ability to change one's mind is actually super important and something we under-value as a culture these days, preferring rigid "sides" that we have to fall on whether it's politics or a TV show. I prefer to listen to my own instincts on these matters, and keep an open mind.
The famous quote often attributed to Keynes is relevant here. Allegedly he'd been criticized for repeatedly changing his opinion about some matter. He responded, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
I have to agree that Numenor seems to be a terrible, painful, miss on the part of the show. Having Galadriel find it in such a hostile, unfriendly state is cataclysmically contrary to the established lore. For fish's sake the rings have not been forged yet! In the legendarium Numenor was very much elf friendly at this stage. When Sauron forged the one ring and the elves took their three off Sauron made war on them and the Numenorians came and kicked Saurons ass for the elves. This Numenor is not only not that Numenor but we can SEE the future Numenorian King who presided over the Islands sinkins skulking around HUNDREDS of years before it should possibly occur.
And that's without getting into the Numenorians' attitude problems. This people are more advanced than other humans, sure, but do they seem like a people whos' scattered refugees could build Orthanc or Minas Tiriths magnificent structures? Certainly not. Nor have they any sense of the Numenorians morality. This is a people who, at this time in the legendarium, are a well meaning and virtuous people. They are a people who are mildly jealous of their elven friends immortality and have an unshakable apprehension of their own mortality but they're a people who'd send armadas to their elf friends aid when they got in a pickle. This bunch of Numenorians are a joke. Sauron wouldn't need to go there in person to corrupt them- he just needs to mail them a box of pamphlets. Again... HUNDREDS of years before the isle is due to sink.
Isildur was born in 3209 and the One Ring was forged in...1600(!) Celebrimbor is not even supposed to be alive anymore. Imagine if they just told what happens between 3255 to 3319, set each season over a decade or so, focus on depicting rich characters and cultures, and culminate with the reason WHY Numenor gets flooded...
I'd have loved to see them take an anthology approach. Do one season around the forging. Another with the fall of Numenor. Another with the war against Sauron and Isildur keeping the Ring etc.
That would be fantastic and considering the number of episodes that were slated up, it's puzzling that they didn't do it. Obviously they'd have to burn through actors for the humans as generations came and went but the elves would have remained the same.
Yes, the absolute incoherence of the show on timeline issues is highly problematic. I’m not trying to lore-nerd the show makers- frankly I think they should be given great latitude but the information we have is just astronomically conflicting with regards to Numenor.
We know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that none of the rings of power have been made. The preliminary forges of the ring smiths are only just being built in Eregion. This means that it is, at a minimum, before 1600 in the second age.
Note that the one ring was -forged- and Barad-Dur in Mordor was -completed- in 1600. The show completely fails to line up with that- the “Southlands” (Mordor) are sunny meadowlands and Barad-Dur hasn’t even begun construction.
In the Tolkein legendarium Sauron appears in Eregion in 1200 and fools the Noldor into accepting his aid with ring smithing. This actually tracks much better for show events. If it’s pre-1200 then one could handwave at the tower structure in the Southlands that figured prominently for the humans and assume that structure is a preliminary-precursor to Barad-Dur which began construction in 1000.
Numenor, however, wrecks all of this. Everything on the island is simply and impossibly wrong. First, and starkly, the reigning King (under a regency) is Tar-Palantir who canonically ascended the throne in -3177-. We know for absolute certain that the Ring hasn’t been forged yet but the King who has been ruling in Numenor for quite some many decades ascended the throne 1,577 years after the One Ring was forged.
This isn’t just some artistic license- it’s a massive re-writing. The Numenorians send a great navy to bail out the Elves after the rings are forged in 1700. These Numenorians wouldn’t send a rowboat to help elves- they despise them. If the Numenorians are this hostile to elven kind this early the entire story of the corruption and fall of the virtuous Numenorians (initially by their own fear of death, then later by Sauron) simply goes over on its ear.
Very well said. As I've pointed out before, I don't mind them condensing the timeline but only if they get it right. They've dropped the ball with Numenor so badly though.
Please leave political comparisons off this space. This is a polite request, not a criticism of you as a person or your beliefs. It’s just that I would like one space not cluttered with sociopolitical commentary. Thank you in advance.
I made an unconsidered political reference in my paragraph on Numenor and subsequently amended it to remove any vestige of RL politics after Handley protested.
Galadriel is a remarkably immature 5,000 years old, yeah. They're just making tons of stuff up by now and it's starting show since Tolkien made up better stuff. I did enjoy the Not All Who Wander song, though.
I can actually see a possible method to their madness vis a vis Galadriel. She's old by human standards and, I agree, she's not even remotely mature or relatable but considering this is the start of the series that merely gives her room to grow. If they could actually develop this hotheaded idiot Galadriel into a Galadriel that's at least of a nodding resemblance to the one in the trilogies that'd be a great accomplishment and would likely be great television.
I think the ability to change one's mind is actually super important and something we under-value as a culture these days, preferring rigid "sides" that we have to fall on whether it's politics or a TV show. I prefer to listen to my own instincts on these matters, and keep an open mind.
The famous quote often attributed to Keynes is relevant here. Allegedly he'd been criticized for repeatedly changing his opinion about some matter. He responded, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
Perfect.
I have to agree that Numenor seems to be a terrible, painful, miss on the part of the show. Having Galadriel find it in such a hostile, unfriendly state is cataclysmically contrary to the established lore. For fish's sake the rings have not been forged yet! In the legendarium Numenor was very much elf friendly at this stage. When Sauron forged the one ring and the elves took their three off Sauron made war on them and the Numenorians came and kicked Saurons ass for the elves. This Numenor is not only not that Numenor but we can SEE the future Numenorian King who presided over the Islands sinkins skulking around HUNDREDS of years before it should possibly occur.
And that's without getting into the Numenorians' attitude problems. This people are more advanced than other humans, sure, but do they seem like a people whos' scattered refugees could build Orthanc or Minas Tiriths magnificent structures? Certainly not. Nor have they any sense of the Numenorians morality. This is a people who, at this time in the legendarium, are a well meaning and virtuous people. They are a people who are mildly jealous of their elven friends immortality and have an unshakable apprehension of their own mortality but they're a people who'd send armadas to their elf friends aid when they got in a pickle. This bunch of Numenorians are a joke. Sauron wouldn't need to go there in person to corrupt them- he just needs to mail them a box of pamphlets. Again... HUNDREDS of years before the isle is due to sink.
I went back to the appendices recently and was very confused when this show takes place. If you look here (https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Age#Timeline)
Isildur was born in 3209 and the One Ring was forged in...1600(!) Celebrimbor is not even supposed to be alive anymore. Imagine if they just told what happens between 3255 to 3319, set each season over a decade or so, focus on depicting rich characters and cultures, and culminate with the reason WHY Numenor gets flooded...
I'd have loved to see them take an anthology approach. Do one season around the forging. Another with the fall of Numenor. Another with the war against Sauron and Isildur keeping the Ring etc.
That would be fantastic and considering the number of episodes that were slated up, it's puzzling that they didn't do it. Obviously they'd have to burn through actors for the humans as generations came and went but the elves would have remained the same.
That would be dope, even if they were just films or shorts like Star Wars Visions, released around the winter solstice.
Yes, the absolute incoherence of the show on timeline issues is highly problematic. I’m not trying to lore-nerd the show makers- frankly I think they should be given great latitude but the information we have is just astronomically conflicting with regards to Numenor.
We know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that none of the rings of power have been made. The preliminary forges of the ring smiths are only just being built in Eregion. This means that it is, at a minimum, before 1600 in the second age.
Note that the one ring was -forged- and Barad-Dur in Mordor was -completed- in 1600. The show completely fails to line up with that- the “Southlands” (Mordor) are sunny meadowlands and Barad-Dur hasn’t even begun construction.
In the Tolkein legendarium Sauron appears in Eregion in 1200 and fools the Noldor into accepting his aid with ring smithing. This actually tracks much better for show events. If it’s pre-1200 then one could handwave at the tower structure in the Southlands that figured prominently for the humans and assume that structure is a preliminary-precursor to Barad-Dur which began construction in 1000.
Numenor, however, wrecks all of this. Everything on the island is simply and impossibly wrong. First, and starkly, the reigning King (under a regency) is Tar-Palantir who canonically ascended the throne in -3177-. We know for absolute certain that the Ring hasn’t been forged yet but the King who has been ruling in Numenor for quite some many decades ascended the throne 1,577 years after the One Ring was forged.
This isn’t just some artistic license- it’s a massive re-writing. The Numenorians send a great navy to bail out the Elves after the rings are forged in 1700. These Numenorians wouldn’t send a rowboat to help elves- they despise them. If the Numenorians are this hostile to elven kind this early the entire story of the corruption and fall of the virtuous Numenorians (initially by their own fear of death, then later by Sauron) simply goes over on its ear.
Very well said. As I've pointed out before, I don't mind them condensing the timeline but only if they get it right. They've dropped the ball with Numenor so badly though.
Please leave political comparisons off this space. This is a polite request, not a criticism of you as a person or your beliefs. It’s just that I would like one space not cluttered with sociopolitical commentary. Thank you in advance.
I'm confused by this comment.
I made an unconsidered political reference in my paragraph on Numenor and subsequently amended it to remove any vestige of RL politics after Handley protested.
Oh ok. I must have read it after you changed the comment!
Galadriel is a remarkably immature 5,000 years old, yeah. They're just making tons of stuff up by now and it's starting show since Tolkien made up better stuff. I did enjoy the Not All Who Wander song, though.
I can actually see a possible method to their madness vis a vis Galadriel. She's old by human standards and, I agree, she's not even remotely mature or relatable but considering this is the start of the series that merely gives her room to grow. If they could actually develop this hotheaded idiot Galadriel into a Galadriel that's at least of a nodding resemblance to the one in the trilogies that'd be a great accomplishment and would likely be great television.