I thought you expressed the thoughts and feelings many
must be having today. I consider myself to be a far left of center Democrat and wouldn't have agreed with much of anything expressed by Charlie Kirk, but he had a platform and the right to say what he believed. I do not feel anything close to gleeful today.
Well said Erik. I'm more of a centrist (also in Australia), so I follow accounts on both sides. What no one wants is an escalation. You're right about the celebration in some circles, (we're seeing it here in Australia with our low tier celebrities like Abbie Chatfield) but it's also true that the right is using inflamatory language, like Chaya Raichik calling this 'a war'.
I hope the US can move forward and stop with the political violence. Social media has us more divided than ever, and the rhetoric being used in online spaces is helping to normalise violence against those you differ from. It's scary.
Yeah it's definitely scary. I wish people would realize just how bad this would be for the majority of people, really everyone across the globe, if violence escalates into something worse.
First I abhor violence. Second this is a tragedy and heartbreaking especially for those close to Charlie Kirk. It's always a tragedy when violence kills someone for using their first amendment rights. Third I appreciate your call to action so to speak. Let's come together and not distill complex people into a you're either my ally or my enemy dynamic. As a Christian I appreciate you quoting Matthew 5.
1. Many on the left that I know or follow (I don't always agree with them tho) view a conciliatory dynamic or respectful approach to those on the right including Charlie Kirk and Turning Point doesn't work or that a conciliatory backfires with no benefit. To their point Democrats have no political power in Washington despite Biden adopting this approach.
You could argue their electoral defeat was for different reasons but then I'd counter with the arguement the Democrat with the most traction right now is Gavin Newsom because he's trolling Trump like a teenage kid. Even though there are other Democratic figures who have led town halls and rallies condemning Trump's policies and conceeding that identity politics needed to take a backseat to other issues that negatively impacts voters. It's Newsom who is polling at the top of all Democrats because he's using inflammatory language to mock and humiliate Trump.
Violence still isn't the answer though and I do believe this thinking is callous and cynical. I also think inflammatory insults at your opponent isn't the answer either. It's not loving your enemy.
Then I realized left wingers don't have a monopoly on being callous or cynical. Right wingers are still mad about legal obstacles to Trump's policy initiatives. To their point hundreds of judges have reduced the scale of Trump's intended rollout of his policies.
So if a left wing activist is shot and killed and they answered a question about immigration before they were killed by an undocumented immigrant I'm sure right wing social media would be dancing and celebrating in a callous and cynical manner.
2.) There are those on the left who are won over by the thinking of the Marvel Comics character the Punisher (ironically considering the character is a critique on certain right leaning ideologies). They think violence is the only answer because non violent means are just filled with loopholes that can be abused preventing true accountability. They'd hate this response from Daredevil on Season 2 of the Daredevil TV Series
"Really? Really? You never think for one second, "Shit, I just killed a human being. A human being who did a lot of stupid shit, maybe even evil, but had one small piece of goodness in him. Maybe just a scrap, Frank, but something. And then you come along, and that one tiny flicker of light gets snuffed out forever."
Punisher even said calling the person Daredevil was defending a human being was generous.
3.) There are those on the right who are hella disengenous and that includes Charlie Kirk. You can't say hey I'm for discourse and exchange of ideas but then associate yourself with a man (Donald Trump) who doesn't engage in these actions. Also if these ideas you discuss on a campus makes up the backbone of destructive policies then is it really a discussion or just a pitch meeting to dress up said policy so the policy appears benign?
Did Charlie Kirk really contribute anything to the political landscape or political discourse? Did he challenge or alter the way discourse was conducted in right leaning circles or in America in general? Not really. He was one of many on the right echoing the same old tired right wing talking points that have been beaten to death.
Did Charlie Kirk deserve to die for this? Of course not. Again I hate political violence or violence in general. But am I surprised? No. This is a trend (a troubling one) that's been happening for years along with the increase of school shootings.
4.) Master Yoda said do or do not there is no try. Sure Charlie Kirk tried to engage in discourse on campuses I'll give him credit for that. As someone who went to an uber liberal university in Massachusetts as a Christian yeah I get the hey we are here too and we have views that need to be given more air time sentiment. But...Kirk did a piss poor job at engaging the other side on campus.
(Again as far as I know) Kirk's dynamic at his events wasn't done in intellectual good faith at all and it seemed geared towards creating gotcha moments. This feels like a feature not a bug in right wing political dynamics.
5.) I think it's possible to have meaningful and thoughtful political dialogue and discourse. It's going to take both collective and individual hard work to find less prominent figures to facilitate this activity of meaningful and respectful non violent political discourse. Popular figures on the left or right (like Kirk was) are awful at this job. It sucks because until this collective effort to have meaningful dialogue becomes a cultural bedrock of our society there is potential for more political violence. Hopefully that potential is never realized.
Oh Charlie Kirk was 100% not interested in engaging in good faith with his opponents. But I still think any engagement is preferable to none. Even when it's disingenuous, at least when people are expressing their ideas in a forum we have the ability to refute those ideas.
And if subpar discourse is all we're getting then the temptation to celebrate violence will be hard to resist for some people. I don't like this at all but it's a natural cause of cause and effect.
This is a brazen lie. You're thinking about Ben Shapiro or somebody else.
Charlie was the nicest, most patient guy in the business and became even more so in the thousands of hours he spent talking to people on camera. He was that way despite constant unrelenting threats on his life starting when he was a teenager.
Can you even open your mind enough to fathom what it's like to live that way?
Leftists live in fear of having conversations where they'd get embarrassed for having stupid, false, self-contradictory opinions.
Right-wing commentators can't go outside without a f***ing bulletproof vest. We have to deadbolt the door all the time and keep at least one loaded gun in our homes where our children sleep. We have to tell our wives that there's a non-zero chance that the feds will raid our house for no f***ing reason. That we're always one bad day away from going to prison for 5 years or losing everything we own in a BS lawsuit.
We have to live in the dystopia that you only have nightmares about and then when we die you f***ing lie about us.
Very very well said, Erik. Thank you for sharing this with us.
It certainly doesn’t bode well for anyone. Regarding dividing tactics. It’s a bit of modern pop culture meme politics but I am reminded of a cartoon that showed a banker looking out his window at the occupy Wall Street protests and saying on the phone “introduce them to identity politics “. Of course identity politics existed before the occupy movement but it really seems to have intensified after that, and also after Bernie’s near taking of the presidential nomination. Where this goes i almost don’t want to contemplate but I know intelligent young people who are quite taken in by identity politics at the expense of common goals.
In the past month, every single Democrat I know who has spoken about Charlie has slandered him as a bigot, lied about his killer, or celebrated his death. One even condemned Gavin Newsom for having a take similar to yours.
Oh and the guy running for the top law enforcement job in Virginia repeatedly explicitly not-jokingly fantasized about murdering the children of Republican politicians in their mother's arms. And, when called on it by someone he texted this by accident, he called her directly to double down that yes this is what he believes in his heart. And nobody on the Left is calling on him to resign.
I'm sure that 1930's Germans had human moments, stubbing their toes and forgetting to put their belts on before going to work. I'm sure they also told themselves that they had really good reasons for supporting violence and that it was all inevitable tides of history anyway. But the the reality is that who they were and what they did was inexcusably evil.
The fact is that if your barometer for who deserves to get murdered counts the average evangelical Christian (who is probably slightly to the right of Charlie Kirk), then most Orthodox Jews are on your kill list too. Congrats! You're literally a f***ing Nazi.
Thanks for writing this post. Well said.
Thank you
I thought you expressed the thoughts and feelings many
must be having today. I consider myself to be a far left of center Democrat and wouldn't have agreed with much of anything expressed by Charlie Kirk, but he had a platform and the right to say what he believed. I do not feel anything close to gleeful today.
More like dread...
Well said, as always, Erik.
Well said Erik. I'm more of a centrist (also in Australia), so I follow accounts on both sides. What no one wants is an escalation. You're right about the celebration in some circles, (we're seeing it here in Australia with our low tier celebrities like Abbie Chatfield) but it's also true that the right is using inflamatory language, like Chaya Raichik calling this 'a war'.
I hope the US can move forward and stop with the political violence. Social media has us more divided than ever, and the rhetoric being used in online spaces is helping to normalise violence against those you differ from. It's scary.
Yeah it's definitely scary. I wish people would realize just how bad this would be for the majority of people, really everyone across the globe, if violence escalates into something worse.
Thank you for these much needed words of wisdom.
Appreciate it
First I abhor violence. Second this is a tragedy and heartbreaking especially for those close to Charlie Kirk. It's always a tragedy when violence kills someone for using their first amendment rights. Third I appreciate your call to action so to speak. Let's come together and not distill complex people into a you're either my ally or my enemy dynamic. As a Christian I appreciate you quoting Matthew 5.
1. Many on the left that I know or follow (I don't always agree with them tho) view a conciliatory dynamic or respectful approach to those on the right including Charlie Kirk and Turning Point doesn't work or that a conciliatory backfires with no benefit. To their point Democrats have no political power in Washington despite Biden adopting this approach.
You could argue their electoral defeat was for different reasons but then I'd counter with the arguement the Democrat with the most traction right now is Gavin Newsom because he's trolling Trump like a teenage kid. Even though there are other Democratic figures who have led town halls and rallies condemning Trump's policies and conceeding that identity politics needed to take a backseat to other issues that negatively impacts voters. It's Newsom who is polling at the top of all Democrats because he's using inflammatory language to mock and humiliate Trump.
Violence still isn't the answer though and I do believe this thinking is callous and cynical. I also think inflammatory insults at your opponent isn't the answer either. It's not loving your enemy.
Then I realized left wingers don't have a monopoly on being callous or cynical. Right wingers are still mad about legal obstacles to Trump's policy initiatives. To their point hundreds of judges have reduced the scale of Trump's intended rollout of his policies.
So if a left wing activist is shot and killed and they answered a question about immigration before they were killed by an undocumented immigrant I'm sure right wing social media would be dancing and celebrating in a callous and cynical manner.
2.) There are those on the left who are won over by the thinking of the Marvel Comics character the Punisher (ironically considering the character is a critique on certain right leaning ideologies). They think violence is the only answer because non violent means are just filled with loopholes that can be abused preventing true accountability. They'd hate this response from Daredevil on Season 2 of the Daredevil TV Series
"Really? Really? You never think for one second, "Shit, I just killed a human being. A human being who did a lot of stupid shit, maybe even evil, but had one small piece of goodness in him. Maybe just a scrap, Frank, but something. And then you come along, and that one tiny flicker of light gets snuffed out forever."
Punisher even said calling the person Daredevil was defending a human being was generous.
3.) There are those on the right who are hella disengenous and that includes Charlie Kirk. You can't say hey I'm for discourse and exchange of ideas but then associate yourself with a man (Donald Trump) who doesn't engage in these actions. Also if these ideas you discuss on a campus makes up the backbone of destructive policies then is it really a discussion or just a pitch meeting to dress up said policy so the policy appears benign?
Did Charlie Kirk really contribute anything to the political landscape or political discourse? Did he challenge or alter the way discourse was conducted in right leaning circles or in America in general? Not really. He was one of many on the right echoing the same old tired right wing talking points that have been beaten to death.
Did Charlie Kirk deserve to die for this? Of course not. Again I hate political violence or violence in general. But am I surprised? No. This is a trend (a troubling one) that's been happening for years along with the increase of school shootings.
4.) Master Yoda said do or do not there is no try. Sure Charlie Kirk tried to engage in discourse on campuses I'll give him credit for that. As someone who went to an uber liberal university in Massachusetts as a Christian yeah I get the hey we are here too and we have views that need to be given more air time sentiment. But...Kirk did a piss poor job at engaging the other side on campus.
(Again as far as I know) Kirk's dynamic at his events wasn't done in intellectual good faith at all and it seemed geared towards creating gotcha moments. This feels like a feature not a bug in right wing political dynamics.
5.) I think it's possible to have meaningful and thoughtful political dialogue and discourse. It's going to take both collective and individual hard work to find less prominent figures to facilitate this activity of meaningful and respectful non violent political discourse. Popular figures on the left or right (like Kirk was) are awful at this job. It sucks because until this collective effort to have meaningful dialogue becomes a cultural bedrock of our society there is potential for more political violence. Hopefully that potential is never realized.
Oh Charlie Kirk was 100% not interested in engaging in good faith with his opponents. But I still think any engagement is preferable to none. Even when it's disingenuous, at least when people are expressing their ideas in a forum we have the ability to refute those ideas.
And if subpar discourse is all we're getting then the temptation to celebrate violence will be hard to resist for some people. I don't like this at all but it's a natural cause of cause and effect.
This is a brazen lie. You're thinking about Ben Shapiro or somebody else.
Charlie was the nicest, most patient guy in the business and became even more so in the thousands of hours he spent talking to people on camera. He was that way despite constant unrelenting threats on his life starting when he was a teenager.
Can you even open your mind enough to fathom what it's like to live that way?
Leftists live in fear of having conversations where they'd get embarrassed for having stupid, false, self-contradictory opinions.
Right-wing commentators can't go outside without a f***ing bulletproof vest. We have to deadbolt the door all the time and keep at least one loaded gun in our homes where our children sleep. We have to tell our wives that there's a non-zero chance that the feds will raid our house for no f***ing reason. That we're always one bad day away from going to prison for 5 years or losing everything we own in a BS lawsuit.
We have to live in the dystopia that you only have nightmares about and then when we die you f***ing lie about us.
Very very well said, Erik. Thank you for sharing this with us.
It certainly doesn’t bode well for anyone. Regarding dividing tactics. It’s a bit of modern pop culture meme politics but I am reminded of a cartoon that showed a banker looking out his window at the occupy Wall Street protests and saying on the phone “introduce them to identity politics “. Of course identity politics existed before the occupy movement but it really seems to have intensified after that, and also after Bernie’s near taking of the presidential nomination. Where this goes i almost don’t want to contemplate but I know intelligent young people who are quite taken in by identity politics at the expense of common goals.
Thanks! I'll have to find that comic. That's hilarious and ...well it makes sense. Ugh
Here’s a link! https://www.reddit.com/r/NewDiscourses/s/6nAB21wDlo
Thanks!
Well said.
Thanks
Love you bro, but this take aged like milk.
In the past month, every single Democrat I know who has spoken about Charlie has slandered him as a bigot, lied about his killer, or celebrated his death. One even condemned Gavin Newsom for having a take similar to yours.
Oh and the guy running for the top law enforcement job in Virginia repeatedly explicitly not-jokingly fantasized about murdering the children of Republican politicians in their mother's arms. And, when called on it by someone he texted this by accident, he called her directly to double down that yes this is what he believes in his heart. And nobody on the Left is calling on him to resign.
I'm sure that 1930's Germans had human moments, stubbing their toes and forgetting to put their belts on before going to work. I'm sure they also told themselves that they had really good reasons for supporting violence and that it was all inevitable tides of history anyway. But the the reality is that who they were and what they did was inexcusably evil.
The fact is that if your barometer for who deserves to get murdered counts the average evangelical Christian (who is probably slightly to the right of Charlie Kirk), then most Orthodox Jews are on your kill list too. Congrats! You're literally a f***ing Nazi.